Plan B » Discussion on Abortion

needtosay · 10/26/2015 12:03 pm

They discussed abortion on the show today and once again the point was made that a woman as the right to choose what she does with her body. So I ask is the unborn baby her body?

AdminShiny · 10/26/2015 12:06 pm

The fetus is attached to the mother's blood supply, so unless it is removed it will be part of the woman's body until birth imo.

needtosay · 10/26/2015 12:17 pm

While it is growing inside the mothers body and it is attatched to her body I do think it is a separate body. I just think that entire argument is invalid. When the mother makes the decision to abort she is not making a decision for her own body but a decision for that other body that is growing inside her.

Iwanttodance2 · 10/26/2015 12:26 pm

I believe that as long as the fetus is totally dependent upon the host's body, then the fetus is a part of the host's body. If it can survive on its own or even with extraordinary medical help, it becomes a living human being on its own. I am not pro-abortion, I am pro-choice. Like the women on the show said today, this is something that is legally allowed, not something that is legally required.

AdminShiny · 10/26/2015 12:29 pm

needtosay wrote:
While it is growing inside the mothers body and it is attatched to her body I do think it is a separate body. I just think that entire argument is invalid. When the mother makes the decision to abort she is not making a decision for her own body but a decision for that other body that is growing inside her.

I think we've had this discussion before, you and I.

While it's true that the woman is making a decision as to whether or not to continue a pregnancy, I believe that the woman's right supercede those of the fetus in the same way that I would not consider an acorn to be an oak tree.

needtosay · 10/26/2015 12:31 pm

So at around 6 months of gestation the baby suddenly becomes an independent body?

AdminShiny · 10/26/2015 12:33 pm

needtosay wrote:
So at around 6 months of gestation the baby suddenly becomes an independent body?

I believe so. It slowly forms from a cluster of cells into a sentient being. It is not the same at 6 weeks development as it is at 6 months. There's just no comparison.

Iwanttodance2 · 10/26/2015 12:34 pm

It if can live outside the host's body.

Iwanttodance2 · 10/26/2015 12:37 pm

I tried to have this discussion with my pro-life niece recently. If every life is life, regardless of stage, what about those embryos in petri dishes? This is a real question i have, not to start a fight.

AdminShiny · 10/26/2015 12:42 pm

Iwanttodance2 wrote:
I tried to have this discussion with my pro-life niece recently. If every life is life, regardless of stage, what about those embryos in petri dishes? This is a real question i have, not to start a fight.

This is a great question. So many frozen embryos that never get used. I don't hear anyone fighting for them.

needtosay · 10/26/2015 1:00 pm

That is an area that I am unsure of. An embryo is a baby from 3 weeks to 8 weeks of gestation and after that it is a fetus. I have to admit your question has me a bit stumped. Is it an embryo when it is still in the petri dish? Or is still in the pre-embryonic stage? I don't know. How long after the egg is fertilized in the petri dish do they put them in the womans body? When an egg is fertilized in a petri dish it is usually done to create life not end it. I think that is a big difference. The purpose of abortion is to end life.

Last edited by needtosay (10/26/2015 1:01 pm)

AdminShiny · 10/26/2015 1:05 pm

needtosay wrote:
That is an area that I am unsure of. An embryo is a baby from 3 weeks to 8 weeks of gestation and after that it is a fetus. I have to admit your question has me a bit stumped. Is it an embryo when it is still in the petri dish? Or is still in the pre-embryonic stage? I don't know. How long after the egg is fertilized in the petri dish do they put them in the womans body? When an egg is fertilized in a petri dish it is usually done to create life not end it. I think that is a big difference. The purpose of abortion is to end life.

The purpose of the morning after pill is to end life too. But is that abortion? And does that 8-12 hour clump of cells have the same rights as the "host" body?

It's such a difficult question, and everyone has a different interpretation of what is right. This is why I don't think anyone but each individual woman should be able to make the choice.

Iwanttodance2 · 10/26/2015 1:16 pm

needtosay wrote:
That is an area that I am unsure of. An embryo is a baby from 3 weeks to 8 weeks of gestation and after that it is a fetus. I have to admit your question has me a bit stumped. Is it an embryo when it is still in the petri dish? Or is still in the pre-embryonic stage? I don't know. How long after the egg is fertilized in the petri dish do they put them in the womans body? When an egg is fertilized in a petri dish it is usually done to create life not end it. I think that is a big difference. The purpose of abortion is to end life.

This is just a hypothetical. I don't know much about artificial insemination, but I do know they are refered to as embryos.

To your point of starting life being the purpose; since a conscious decision is made to creat the embyo, if they don't bring the embryo to the final stage, they still are not giving it life on its own. Ending life is ending life, if all life is life.

needtosay · 10/26/2015 1:20 pm

I just did some research. With invitro fertilization the fertilized egg is placed inside the mother within a few days of it being fertilized. So it really isn't technically a embryo yet. It is a fertilized egg. There is no heart beat yet so at that point I don't think it is yet a life. As far as the morning after pill goes shiny, there are two different kinds. One stops a pregnancy from happening and the other ends an existing pregnancy. I am all for the use of the kind that stop pregnancy from happening. I am almost ok with the other one because it ends a pregnancy very early in the pregnancy before it goes from a fertilized egg to an embryo. I guess I don't consider a fertilized egg a life. Once it implants and develops into an embryo then life has begun, IMO.

Last edited by needtosay (10/26/2015 1:21 pm)

Iwanttodance2 · 10/26/2015 1:20 pm

Iwanttodance2 wrote:
needtosay wrote:
That is an area that I am unsure of. An embryo is a baby from 3 weeks to 8 weeks of gestation and after that it is a fetus. I have to admit your question has me a bit stumped. Is it an embryo when it is still in the petri dish? Or is still in the pre-embryonic stage? I don't know. How long after the egg is fertilized in the petri dish do they put them in the womans body? When an egg is fertilized in a petri dish it is usually done to create life not end it. I think that is a big difference. The purpose of abortion is to end life.
This is just a hypothetical. I don't know much about artificial insemination, but I do know they are refered to as embryos.

To your point of starting life being the purpose; since a conscious decision is made to creat the embyo, if they don't bring the embryo to the final stage, they still are not giving it life on its own. Ending life is ending life, if all life is life.

Need, don't take this as me being a smart ass, but I can't help but ask this question: If instead of an abortion, would it be ok to just remove the embryo and freeze it indefinitely?

Also, I am not meaning to insult implementation, these are just hypotheticals for a discussion of life being life -- nothing more.

AdminShiny · 10/26/2015 1:22 pm

needtosay wrote:
I just did some research. With invitro fertilization the fertilized egg is placed inside the mother within a few days of it being fertilized. So it really isn't technically a embryo yet. It is a fertilized egg. There is no heart beat yet so at that point I don't think it is yet a life. As far as the morning after pill goes shiny, there are two different kinds. One stops a pregnancy from happening and the other ends an existing pregnancy. I am all for the use of the kind that stop pregnancy from happening. I am almost ok with the other one because it ends a pregnancy very early in the pregnancy before it goes from a fertilized egg to an embryo. I guess I don't consider a fertilized egg a life. Once it implants and develops into an embryo then life has begun, IMO.

I hear what you are saying, need. So there are people who think that life begins as soon as the sperm meets the egg, and others who feel the same way you do. How do we decide who is right?

Iwanttodance2 · 10/26/2015 1:27 pm

needtosay wrote:
I just did some research. With invitro fertilization the fertilized egg is placed inside the mother within a few days of it being fertilized. So it really isn't technically a embryo yet. It is a fertilized egg. There is no heart beat yet so at that point I don't think it is yet a life. As far as the morning after pill goes shiny, there are two different kinds. One stops a pregnancy from happening and the other ends an existing pregnancy. I am all for the use of the kind that stop pregnancy from happening. I am almost ok with the other one because it ends a pregnancy very early in the pregnancy before it goes from a fertilized egg to an embryo. I guess I don't consider a fertilized egg a life. Once it implants and develops into an embryo then life has begun, IMO.

That the thing though, Need, everyone has their own ideas and beliefs about when life begins. As long as something is a choice and not a requirement, isn't people's beleifs being respected?

needtosay · 10/26/2015 1:36 pm

They do refer to them as embryos but from what i have read the embryonic state begins at 3 weeks of gestation. That would be three weeks after fertilization. These are really just fertilized eggs. From what i understand there is a high rate of failure with this proceedure and many of them don't even successfully implant and result in a pregnancy. I think if it were possible to remove embryos from the mother and freeze them indefinitely that would preseent some ethics questions. I wouldn't be in favor of freezing them with the intention of keeping them that way forever. I don't see it as a viable alternative to abortion.

needtosay · 10/26/2015 1:45 pm

That is true IWTD. Everyone does have their own opinion of when life begins. My own opinion is where there is a heart beat there is life. I have read that the heart starts beating at about 5 weeks of gestation.

Iwanttodance2 · 10/26/2015 1:53 pm

Good discussion Need and Shiny. It is so nice to actually discuss things, especially when there is a differing of opinions, and not be dismissive and insulting to others.