Plan B » Tamir Rice

AdminShiny · 12/28/2015 2:08 pm

Prosecutor is announcing that the officers involved will not face charges. Is this going to be the last straw for Cleveland?

needtosay · 12/28/2015 5:12 pm

I heard about that. It is such a sad situation. You have a kid that looks to be about 14 or 15 years old who is reported to be brandishing a gun in a park. When the cops show up and tell him to put his hands up he reached for the gun in his waste band probably to show them it wasn't real or maybe to give it to them and they shoot him thinking he is reaching for a real gun. Turns out the kid is only twelve and the gun is a pellet gun. Not sure what the cops should have done differently with the information they had at the time. They, very reasonably, perceived imminent danger. There were other people around and they thought he had a real gun. So sad that the kid lost his life so senselessly.

retiredfa · 12/28/2015 6:05 pm

Such a tragic thing. In these days I cannot imagine how a kid would be allowed to think they could take what looks like a real gun to the park and wave it around. Even in the dark ages when I was a kid that would not be allowed by my parents, we played cowboys in the back yard.

Spunky · 12/28/2015 6:22 pm

I agree 'retiredfa' and 'need'

Really a sad situation all around...so young and now he's gone....extending my sympathies to his family.

Vantro should know more about this case, then what we are privy to see in the news items and clips...

AdminShiny · 12/28/2015 6:45 pm

needtosay wrote:
I heard about that. It is such a sad situation. You have a kid that looks to be about 14 or 15 years old who is reported to be brandishing a gun in a park. When the cops show up and tell him to put his hands up he reached for the gun in his waste band probably to show them it wasn't real or maybe to give it to them and they shoot him thinking he is reaching for a real gun. Turns out the kid is only twelve and the gun is a pellet gun. Not sure what the cops should have done differently with the information they had at the time. They, very reasonably, perceived imminent danger. There were other people around and they thought he had a real gun. So sad that the kid lost his life so senselessly.

There's quite a few issues with the police behaviour that I find disturbing.

First, why did they think it would be a good idea to pull up 8 feet away from someone with a gun? There are many ways to de-escalate situation other than shooting a person dead. But pulling up and giving him less than 2 seconds to comply with their commands is ridiculous.

Second, I believe they lied in their police report. They claim that they told him 3 times to comply and then they shot him. How do you tell someone something 3 times, and give them enought time to understand and comply, when all of that is supposedly done in 2 seconds? Didn't happen. They rolled up and got freaked and shot him.

And finally, why did he not receive any medical assistance? He was allowed to bleed out into the grass. I imagine if one of the police officers had been shot, they would have rushed to his aid and also had medical help there asap. Was this boy not even worth the basic medical assistance anyone else would offer a dog that got hit by a car in the road?

Gaahhh, sorry, I'm starting to rant but this case really gets under my skin.

NESunrise · 12/28/2015 6:58 pm

AdminShiny wrote:
needtosay wrote:
I heard about that. It is such a sad situation. You have a kid that looks to be about 14 or 15 years old who is reported to be brandishing a gun in a park. When the cops show up and tell him to put his hands up he reached for the gun in his waste band probably to show them it wasn't real or maybe to give it to them and they shoot him thinking he is reaching for a real gun. Turns out the kid is only twelve and the gun is a pellet gun. Not sure what the cops should have done differently with the information they had at the time. They, very reasonably, perceived imminent danger. There were other people around and they thought he had a real gun. So sad that the kid lost his life so senselessly.
There's quite a few issues with the police behaviour that I find disturbing.

First, why did they think it would be a good idea to pull up 8 feet away from someone with a gun? There are many ways to de-escalate situation other than shooting a person dead. But pulling up and giving him less than 2 seconds to comply with their commands is ridiculous.

Second, I believe they lied in their police report. They claim that they told him 3 times to comply and then they shot him. How do you tell someone something 3 times, and give them enought time to understand and comply, when all of that is supposedly done in 2 seconds? Didn't happen. They rolled up and got freaked and shot him.

And finally, why did he not receive any medical assistance? He was allowed to bleed out into the grass. I imagine if one of the police officers had been shot, they would have rushed to his aid and also had medical help there asap. Was this boy not even worth the basic medical assistance anyone else would offer a dog that got hit by a car in the road?

Gaahhh, sorry, I'm starting to rant but this case really gets under my skin.

^^^^^^^^^^^ all of this-thank you for writing it for me

needtosay · 12/28/2015 7:55 pm

AdminShiny wrote:
needtosay wrote:
I heard about that. It is such a sad situation. You have a kid that looks to be about 14 or 15 years old who is reported to be brandishing a gun in a park. When the cops show up and tell him to put his hands up he reached for the gun in his waste band probably to show them it wasn't real or maybe to give it to them and they shoot him thinking he is reaching for a real gun. Turns out the kid is only twelve and the gun is a pellet gun. Not sure what the cops should have done differently with the information they had at the time. They, very reasonably, perceived imminent danger. There were other people around and they thought he had a real gun. So sad that the kid lost his life so senselessly.
There's quite a few issues with the police behaviour that I find disturbing.You make some very valid points. I do think that they made some tactical errors but I don't think they warranted charges. They were responding to a call about a guy brandishing a gun. When they told him to show his hands he reached towards his waist band where the gun was. They didn't know this was a twelve year old kid as he was large for his age and they didn't know the gun he had was a pellet gun. Once someone reaches for their gun it only takes a seconds for someone to be shot so they had to make a split second decision. I wasn't aware that they didn't render any first aid care after shooting. I have no explanation about that. I wonder of department policy dictates they call for help and don't do anything else. I would have to know more about why they didn't render first aid.

First, why did they think it would be a good idea to pull up 8 feet away from someone with a gun? There are many ways to de-escalate situation other than shooting a person dead. But pulling up and giving him less than 2 seconds to comply with their commands is ridiculous.

Second, I believe they lied in their police report. They claim that they told him 3 times to comply and then they shot him. How do you tell someone something 3 times, and give them enought time to understand and comply, when all of that is supposedly done in 2 seconds? Didn't happen. They rolled up and got freaked and shot him.

And finally, why did he not receive any medical assistance? He was allowed to bleed out into the grass. I imagine if one of the police officers had been shot, they would have rushed to his aid and also had medical help there asap. Was this boy not even worth the basic medical assistance anyone else would offer a dog that got hit by a car in the road?

Gaahhh, sorry, I'm starting to rant but this case really gets under my skin.

DollyLongstaff · 12/28/2015 9:18 pm

Hi need.
Sad, sad story.
Why is it that trained cops can't identify a kid and resort to shoot to kill?
Seriously, it's 2015.
If these macho cops really felt threatened by this child, they couldn't use a taser? Shoot him in the leg?

Last edited by DollyLongstaff (12/28/2015 9:19 pm)

zeke · 12/29/2015 12:09 am

The cops' stories do not ring true. What I saw in the video was the cops pulling up and shooting Tamir on the spot and right away. There does not appear to be ANY communication between Tamir Rice and the cops.
Were ambulances not called because the cops were too panicked to be bothered and busy getting their stories straight? Something's not right and the people know that. The people know the routine.

esm · 12/29/2015 7:46 am

I have issues with the judgment of the toy manufacturer, the parents and the police.

AdminShiny · 12/29/2015 9:02 am

zeke wrote:
The cops' stories do not ring true. What I saw in the video was the cops pulling up and shooting Tamir on the spot and right away. There does not appear to be ANY communication between Tamir Rice and the cops.
Were ambulances not called because the cops were too panicked to be bothered and busy getting their stories straight? Something's not right and the people know that. The people know the routine.

That's my issue too. It was less than 2.5 seconds from the time the officer exited the car and when Tamir was shot. The officer wouldn't have had time to give him an order (not to mention 3 times) and Tamir would have had no chance to comply.

Vantro · 12/29/2015 11:38 am

I am so angry, hurt & disappointed in this " decision". So many heads need to roll over this starting with the prosecutor. The man has made disparaging remarks about the family and has influenced the jury in making a decision protecting the police. I am too upset to comment on this right now. All I can say right now is that this situation is far from over. Cleveland will find justice for this family and change for the city. We will unite and make the city safer for the people and the police. We will not be used as a political, racial or propaganda piece in someone's game. This is real, this is now and many people are suffering. Change is now!

needtosay · 12/29/2015 1:08 pm

DollyLongstaff wrote:
Hi need.
Sad, sad story.
Why is it that trained cops can't identify a kid and resort to shoot to kill?
Seriously, it's 2015.
If these macho cops really felt threatened by this child, they couldn't use a taser? Shoot him in the leg?

When a child is unusually tall for their age it can be difficult to discern his age. Cops generally do stand their and interview a person (who they think might be threat) in the middle of the situation. They got a call about a guy pointing a gun at people. The dispatcher did not relay to the officers that the caller thinks it was a kid and the gun might be fake. The officers had to go with the information they were given. The grand jury had to make a decision whether to two officers did anything criminal. They found they did not. They did make a tactical error by pulling up so close to him but that wasn't a criminal act. Tamir death was the result of a set of unfortunate circumstances. The choice Tamir made to play with the gun in the park pointing it at people as they walked by, the fact that the orange tip was removed, the fact that the dispatcher did not relay all the information to the responding officers, the fact that Tamir looked much older than he was, The officers tactical error of pulling up too close to him and the fact that Tamir chose to reach towards his waste band instead of keeping his hands up as the officers ordered. Is so sad that a twelve year old lost his life over a pellet gun. You have to understand when police officers go into a situation where someone has a gun a seconds hesitation can result in their death. They went into a situation where they were told the guy had a gun and were acting on that information.

Vantro · 12/29/2015 1:44 pm

"They did make a tactical error by pulling up so close to him but that wasn't a criminal act. Tamir death was the result of a set of unfortunate circumstances. The choice Tamir made to play with the gun in the park pointing it at people as they walked by, the fact that the orange tip was removed, the fact that the dispatcher did not relay all the information to the responding officers, the fact that Tamir looked much older than he was, The officers tactical error of pulling up too close to him and the fact that Tamir chose to reach towards his waste band instead of keeping his hands up as the officers ordered. Is so sad that a twelve year old lost his life over a pellet gun. You have to understand when police officers go into a situation where someone has a gun a seconds hesitation can result in their death. They went into a situation where they were told the guy had a gun and were acting on that information."

Cleveland officers are known for making a lot of "tactical errors". Ask the mentally ill woman who was put in a choke hold while hand cuffed. Oh wait she is dead. Ask the woman who called cops for help, but when the cops arrived they mistook her for the perp & tackled her then put her in a choke hold. City paid for that mistake. How much money is Cleveland going to have to pay out for " tactical errors" which result in the injury or death? How long are cops going to have their actions excused? Oh did I mention the officer that mistook the woman as the perp was the veteran officer at the Tamir incident? Did I mention that the officer who shot Tamir was fired from independence because he was deemed unfit for duty because he broke down under pressure. Hmmmm seems he did once again. Took him less than 2 seconds to break down, slip & shoot a 12 yr old.

I would like to ask those aiming the blame or partial blame at Tamir for waving around this gun, what are children to do with toy guns? What is expected of a child? Maybe he was acting like a thug with a gun, maybe he was pretending he was a cop, who knows, but odds are most kids point it another person while playing. Of course they do! Perhaps toy makers & lawmakers need to be held accountable? Why make toy & pellet guns look real, while making real guns designer? Real guns bedazzled with pink & rhinestones while toy guns look gun metal black! Wtf ppl?

One last point. It does not matter how old Tamir looked. It was not alright for the cops to pull up on him as they did and that so-called "tactical error" made by police cost a 12 yr old his life! I am not a cop & I asses situations before approaching. That is policing 101. Don't put yourself, fellow officers or the public in danger, but that is exactly what these two cops did! This is on the police & it is scary to think anyone could get gunned down in this city because we have poorly trained & frightened cops policing it! Makes me ill!

zeke · 12/29/2015 2:41 pm

Hear you Vantro.
Also......If I am not mistaken this took place in the projects? So Tamir was in a park playing by himself which was indeed his backyard. (Someone had written earlier that he needed to be in his own yard playing.)
And I agree that while it's sad that this child was killed, no one should be killed like this.

Vantro · 12/29/2015 2:58 pm

No one has really discussed the issue of Ohio being an open carry state. Remember Tamir was killed in less than 2 seconds of police arrival. Also no one seems to be discussing the lack of first aid to Tamir. How can anyone support these 2 officers? Cleveland police reated this entire problem starting with dispatch all the way down to the officers on the scene, complete failure. Absolute failure!

needtosay · 12/29/2015 3:09 pm

The police had a report of a guy with a gun. That is a situation that is typically very dangerous for cops and bystanders. I don't really blame Tamir for his own death as he was just a child and most likely did not understand that people would think the gun was real. His activities did play into the situation as a whole though. The fact that he was playing with a very realistic gun is a factor in his death. The police thought he was going to draw on them and reacted accordingly.

needtosay · 12/29/2015 3:20 pm

Zeke they did call an ambulance and the kid did get care from an FBI agent within 4 minutes of the shooting. He didn't lie their and die. He died like 16 hours later in the hospital. I don't know why the cops didn't render immediate care. I have to wonder if policy dictates that they call for help and don't render care in order to protect the cop and the police department. I mean when thinks about it there is a definite conflict of interest there. Could look like the cop was trying to finish the job instead of helping the person.

zeke · 12/29/2015 6:55 pm

Sorry need......the whole thing stinks bad. Both cops have shady stuff in their backgrounds. Four minutes is a long time to lay there bleeding. The cops didn't even go to Tamir to try to stop the bleeding. Then Tamir's sister runs to her injured brother, probably in shock, and they cuff her and throw her in a police car while the twelve year old lay dying.
If they were not black, it wouldn't have happened that way. Of that I am convinced. No one wants it to be that way but many people believe that.

AdminShiny · 12/29/2015 7:18 pm

needtosay wrote:
The police had a report of a guy with a gun. That is a situation that is typically very dangerous for cops and bystanders. I don't really blame Tamir for his own death as he was just a child and most likely did not understand that people would think the gun was real. His activities did play into the situation as a whole though. The fact that he was playing with a very realistic gun is a factor in his death. The police thought he was going to draw on them and reacted accordingly.

"The police had a report of a guy with a gun. This is typically very dangerous"
But isn't Ohio an open carry state? Could a guy not be carrying a gun in a park?

I do not know if they thought he was going to draw on them. I don't know how anyone makes that determination in 2.5 seconds, while giving an order and repeatig it three times the giving the suspect a chance to comply. If anyone believes what the Officers put in their reports regarding instructions given to Tamir, I have a bridge to see you. It is just not possible.